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Nord-Ost: life before andafter
Written by   
, 23 2010


By Kseniya Larina

Saturday, October 23, 2010

Guests: Dmitry Milovidov, Oksana Barkovskaya, Marat Abdrakhimov, and Mark Podlesny

Moderators: Ksenia Larina

Radio Echo of Moscow program: Culture Shock

K.LARINA Well, we start the program Culture Shock. Ithink we've all heard about the topic that we dedicate our broadcast to, before the start of the program you heard an announcement about an upcoming event on Tuesday, October 26th, another commemoration near the Dubrovka center. Today is October 23rd. 8years ago during a performance of Nord-Ost, Ithink at the end of the first



M.ABDRAKHIMOV The start of the second.

K.LARINA The start of the second act, on stage there were people in camouflage with these machineguns and they just started this terrible tragedy, which lasted for 3days, and people who were witnesses and participants of this nightmare, of course, they will never forget it for the rest of their lives.

I want to start today's broadcast expressing gratitude to everyone who came today to our studio. Iwill introduce the participants of today's conversation. Dmitry Milovidov is a member of the coordinating council for the Nord-Ost organization and the father of two hostages, one of whom never returned, yes, Dmitry? Hello. Marat Abdrakhimov is a wonderful actor who was performing at Nord-Ost, good day, Marat, hello.


K.LARINA Mark Podlesny, also an actor. Goodday, Mark.


K.LARINA Oksana Barkovskaya, journalist, author of at least two films that focus on Nord-Ost Diary from the other side and Christina plus Arseny. Goodday, Oksana, hello.


K.LARINA Why do Isay thank you? Because when Igot the idea to put together this program, we called a lot of people and got a lot of refusals. Refusals, because people who have experienced it after 8years still cannot find the strength to start the subject again, to simply come in and talk.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Ireally understand them.

K.LARINA Yes, Iunderstand this perfectly, and realize what a wound it left in people's hearts, and, especially for those who lost loved ones, so once again Isay thank you for finding the strength and coming to our studio today. Thesubject of this broadcast Ihave named Nord-Ost: life before and after because, of course, given the incredibly cynical government silence on this episode in our nation's history, Ithink it would be important for us to take time to remember those who are no longer in this world, who left us while quite young, these young boys, children, actors and audience members, and talk a little about those who go on with their lives, and if you know someone, Ithink you do know, certainly you talk with colleagues, and Dmitry, of course, knows them, and so does Oksana, they know of those who have passed over this Rubicon and found the strength to live. Well, let me ask them to maybe talk a little about what happened, and have Marat and Mark talk about their lives before and after Dubrovka, and in general, does time heal?

M.ABDRAKHIMOV In different ways. Ithink in my case, after what happened, naturally, just as perhaps for anyone else, we weren’t prepared for such a thing, and my mind immediately filled with so many questions, questions that Itried frantically to answer: why us? What is death? Whydid this happen us? Where do we go after death? Isit worth living after this? And so on. There were many questions. For8 years Isearched for answers. Ifound many of them, but what Ifind acceptable may not necessarily be acceptable to someone else. Well, in general, life does not just develop. Imade my life into what it is. I mean that Itake responsibility for my life, let's put it that way. Iwoke up and forced myself at every moment accept responsibility for myself, to live this life to get pleasure from it and appreciate every moment of life, because we’re all under God and each of us can at any particular moment can go somewhere from where we’ll never return, right? Sothere. Andso for every moment, for every breath, I'm grateful and I, well, Ican say that Isavor this life, that's because most of us, so to speak, go through life, one must confess, like some sort of a bio-robot: we wake up, go and wash up, have breakfast, go to work, come back at night and watch TV, lie down again, and every day it's the same thing. Now, if everyone perhaps was to ask themselves: when was the last time we looked into the eyes of our loved ones, yes, the favorite person in our family, when did we last play with the baby, Idon't know, when did we watch a beautiful sunset, there's always something there in our lives that’s beautiful. Thisis what Ilearned, probably, from Nord-Ost to appreciate every moment of life.

K.LARINA There was no desire to change jobs and get out of there?

M.ABDRAKHIMOV You know, no, because at that time Iwas, how to say this, this is my passion, this is my love, Igave 12years to the musical genre and it's like a drug, one that's very difficult to quit. For12 years at the time Iwasn't ready, though it was very scary, scary, it was hard to get back on stage, to get to that point in the musical when the hostage taking began.

K.LARINA You were on stage when the seizure took place, yes?

M.ABDRAKHIMOV And it’s not just me, Iasked the guys, everyone's heart would freeze and they'd get nervous tics, and it went on practically to the end of the project, in my opinion, it was really scary.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Excuse me, but when Nord-Ost was resumed, did you participate in the play?

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Of course, of course, Ihave a family and Ihad to feed it. Andit wasn't our fault that we're back in that same auditorium, and not the fault of our producers that we weren't in a different one, unfortunately, in Moscow there's not enough room to perform every play and what is now that is, for all 8years there still were plays being performed and now there's a performance of An Ordinary Miracle and one would probably have liked the producers to pick another site, but there just isn't any other one in Moscow, no.

M.PODLESNY Yes, it's tough with space, and most importantly, the question of what it's like to perform there. Here, I, for one, yes, Ihad a feeling that that they came here, came because, for me it’s a great pleasure, and an honor, to perform in this musical. Itwas a wonderful project. Ihave not seen its equal on any Moscow stage these last 8years. AndI had a feeling that something very dear to me was taken away and ruined. AndI wanted to clean it up and cuddle it, that's what Iput into it, Marat and I.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV The entire team.

M.PODLESNY The creators invested a huge amount of energy, their soul, their talents, and so on. AndI'd like to revive all of this, renew it, Iwanted to make it live again, you know? Water it so that would come back to life, because Ihad the feeling that every member of the troupe related to this project as if a loved one.

K.LARINA By the way, I'd like to say that Iwatched this show; Iwatched it on October 20th.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Wow. Thatis, you're lucky.

K.LARINA 3days before the horror.

D.MILOVIDOV The terrorists had already been in the theater?

K.LARINA Yes, Isaw them. Andthen, of course, when you start to think, Isaw these women around the ladies room while everyone was smoking. There were a few women, similar to those

M.ABDRAKHIMOV To those who were there.

K.LARINA And why do Iremember them? Notbecause they had some special look, but because they didn't smoke, everyone there was smoking, and, lo, they huddled strangely in the corners there, mumbling something to each other, but, of course but Ijust thought about it not because Iwas lucky but Ithink I’m lucky because Isaw this show. Wealso went with our children and had so much fun, so Ican say that Iam very lucky in the sense that I've seen this work. Mark, back then you didn't interrupt your acting life after everything? Didn't you? Here, I'll ask the same question. Didn't you?

M.PODLESNY No. There was no desire.

K.LARINA Yes, to change life.

M.PODLESNY Change life.


M.PODLESNY Honestly, you're not the first person to ask me about it.

K.LARINA Of course.

M.PODLESNY Well, for now somehow Ijust can’t imagine myself doing anything else. Istill can’t even imagine that Icould do something else, that is, Ilove my profession.

K.LARINA Somehow over time were the emotions associated with this episode of your life blunted?

M.PODLESNY You know what I'll tell you? Itisn't that the emotions are blunted directly, but there’s such a thing as memory being very helpful, you know? Mymemory is very kind to me. Certain things it lets go of, not forgotten, that is you immerse yourself in it you start to remember some things, certain parts and so on, but if you simply talk and say, look, it was over there back then it was the day after you were taken and what you were doing at the time, for example. Ican say this because my memory is very helpful, it kind of saves me, but there are many feelings, various ones, fear, of course, and surprise and confusion, and fear for your loved ones who didn't know anything about you and sat at home without any news and you realize that they probably had it even worse, even harder than you who could see everything around you, while they sat there and their imagination builds something absolutely horrible

K.LARINA By the way, we must remember that this was a pivotal moment in the history of our country, not only because of the incredible scale of the tragedy, but it was right in the city center, near the center of the capital that all this happened, and we could still receive information and live broadcasts and we were live on the air, by the way, when there were talks with the terrorists, we were there, too

O.BARKOVSKAYA Dima Lisnevsky, Iremember back then that Dima Lisnevsky called up, he was one of the managers of the station.

K.LARINA Yes. Sowe were still able to directly follow what was happening. Itseems to me that this also played a role. Well, Dmitry, you have the floor, please.

D.MILOVIDOV All these years after the tragedy, the support of the people has been very precious to us. Andthe support of the media. Yourradio station was of our first hope and support. I’d like to specifically thank Mr. Venediktov for his civic responsibility, and all the employees of this radio station. I'll tell our listeners that the station management had the courage to place on its website our report, called: Nord-Ost. TheUnfinished Investigation. This is a strong civic position. Wehave the support of former hostages, and the actors. Their presence is very precious to us. Their presence on October 26th near the Dubrovka Theater. Theystand beside us. Weare a little warmer when they are with us.

K.LARINA Do a lot of people come?


M.ABDRAKHIMOV Each year fewer and fewer.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Each year fewer and fewer.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV This is unfortunately true.

D.MILOVIDOV People have the usual everyday problems. Itfalls on a weekday. Many(hostages) following the events had to change jobs because a wise employer understands that after a gas attack a person is a potential disability claim, and this would cause long and dreary mess with the pension, so people were forced to cover their tracks. Thisis a big problem.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Well, many, in fact, never got recovered. Inany case, if the group knows, let's say a person lost a child; in any case there are memories

D.MILOVIDOV I'm still more concerned about the disintegration of the Nord-Ost organization, because so much has been said about the friendship among the actors, that they are unified. Well, why does the Memorial Book, which we are now writing and hope to finish, why are there so few recollections from my colleagues? Whydo orchestra members complain here, close friends say to each other: no need to call her, don't bother her, she’s in mourning. Don’t they realize that if her instrument is silent that her three children might go hungry and she’ll have to go wash floors and the children won't get an education or be properly dressed? Maybe they don't understand. After all, everyone needs to work. Wearen't wealthy. People in Russia have the same main problem and leaves its mark. First and foremost, the most vulnerable people here are those who are underage. 70children were orphaned after Nord-Ost. Many of them have already gone on to independent lives, but they never got the same education that they could’ve had with the help of their parents.

K.LARINA Did they get any money or a lump sum payment?

D.MILOVIDOV This is a separate issue.

K.LARINA No, no, tell me.

D.MILOVIDOV Ihave many victims, they say why not write a letter to Medvedev? Suchtrust in the kind tsar. Wewrote. Thisletter’s in our folder, and there’s the answer. Ofcourse Medvedev didn't read it. Itwas flushed off to the relevant authorities. Onedrain goes to the prosecutor's office, and another to the Ministry of Health and Social Development. Thegeneral meaning of the letter is: you have all been paid. Inthis case the government didn’t hesitate and in one line writes about its charity care, which we certainly appreciate, and the support of private charities, from Mosehnergo, and then after a comma it indicates the Volskiy Foundation of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs, as if you can thank the government that it hasn't killed off the charities. That's the situation now.

K.LARINA What about some sort of medical care?

D.MILOVIDOV There was an office organized well, my neighbors are already giggling. The13th Municipal Hospital is a trauma hospital. Itwas set up to help with injuries at a large factory. Naturally there is no toxicology department, nothing. Butthe office was opened there. Thereception there was as follows, please forgive me for the details, analysis of feces and urine: free of charge. Oh, you need biochemistry? No, that's on you, please go to a health clinic at your own expense. Youneed imaging? Sorry, that has to be paid for by you. Oh, you're dizzy? Well, go home quickly, God forbid that you fall down on the steps. Asfar as Iknow, people just stopped going to this office. Butput a check mark there: a medical office did exist. After the publication of our report, Nord-Ost. TheUnfinished Investigation, there was a meeting at City Hall and Dr. Roshal was invited to discuss the creation of a separate medical consultation office for children who went through the gas attack, it was to be at the Filatov hospital. Asfar as Iknow nothing was ever done. Atthe same time the authorities were very concerned about television programs on problems of former hostages, and movies that were filmed. I've read documents from competent bodies that report all the way to the top, and with particular concern.

K.LARINA We’ll now listen to news and then back to the studio to continue our discussion. Already Oksana Barkovskaya is given the floor.


K.LARINA Continuing our program, I'll remind you that today we are remembering the events that occurred on Melnikov Street 8years ago, yes, at Dubrovka, and today in our studio we have Dmitry Milovidov, member of the coordinating council of the Nord-Ost organization, and actors from the musical Nord-Ost who went through this hell. Theyare Marat Abdrakhimov, Mark Podlesny and journalist Oksana Barkovskaya. HereI have discovered something on Wikipedia, and Ijust wanted to read it since we started talking about health effects, so I’ll quote the then Russian president, Vladimir Putin, who on September 20th, 2003, said at a briefing: These people did not die as a result of the gas, which was harmless, but were victims of circumstances dehydration, chronic diseases, and the very fact that they had to stay inside that building. Iunderstand perfectly, that he himself didn't come up with this, but he helpfully offered it up, but, of course even Iforgot about it, we all forget if no one reminds you, you quickly forget what was happening, what they told us. Here’s the president's speech

D.MILOVIDOV Gennady Gudkov, a member of the Security Council, had to lubricate his chief's words by saying that, understand that the president isn't a chemist, but a spy. Iunderstand that he swore to himself that his speechwriters prepared such nonsense.

K.LARINA But was spoken and it will remain history.

D.MILOVIDOV The words have been said. Thisseemingly was to serve as a statement about the crime, after all was said back then about the doctors not knowing how to treat it. Theidea is that if you pursue it like they did during the old Soviet days, it had to be prosecuted. As in the words of the president, an investigation, but this was not done. Thegas was harmless, if you please, but what do we tell a girl born after the Nord-Ost whose mother came under the gas attack in her fifth month and doctors haven’t told her about possible effects. Thegirl was born and diagnosed with cerebral palsy. Thentests revealed that it was actually toxic encephalopathy. It’s a dilemma for her mother: you can change the diagnosis, but then she loses her welfare because with toxic encephalopathy, which we have previously never seen, there’s no pension. Butthe mother has also two parents who are Chernobyl invalids, what she to do? Soshe said no. Butthe little girl has grown up since then and asks: Mommy why can't I? I'm like other kids.

K.LARINA Oksana.

O.BARKOVSKAYA You know, I'm looking now at Marat, Mark, at people who were in the auditorium and Irealize that Ican see what Mark is going through, Iunderstand that 8years can’t completely heal someone. Inany case, the people who on the 23rd entered the building on Dubrovka became different, and they don't change back, and in their lives nothing will change back. I've talked a lot with former hostages. They can't be like they were before because, no matter what, they are still hostages, isn't that so, Marat? Because there's no such thing as a former hostage.

K.LARINA You're following the destinies of the heroes that you've run into, yes?

O.BARKOVSKAYA Of course, I'm very friendly with them. Forme a very close friend is Irina Fadeyeva, heroine of the first film: Nord-Ost 11th row, and naturally Irina communicates with the other hostages, Iknow practically everything that happens to many of them. Iwant to say that it was very difficult of course, it was difficult the first year, the shock and the second year, the third year and then somehow, well, enough even then, as far as Iknow, Dmitry, you have ceased to meet as you used to during the first 23years.

D.MILOVIDOV Why? When there is a need, we meet.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Well, not as initially. Andhere the 7-8-th years for some reason, by the way, psychologists Psychologists said when all this happened, they said that the most difficult would be the 7th and 8th years after it happened. Almost everyone has something happen in his or her life that, in general, is not a good thing in any event. Iwanted to make a movie now, just in time for the eighth anniversary of it all, about how these people now live, and Irealized that Icouldn't do it. Ican't because Ididn’t have the moral strength. Neither Inor my, shall we say, potential heroes, they won't be able to talk about what happened because for very few of them was it something good. Nord-Ost does not let go.

K.LARINA And no one left the country?

O.BARKOVSKAYA Sveta Gubareva, who lost a daughter, left. That's everyone Ithink, Idon't know of anyone else. Shewent to America and is, Ithink, now engaged in Memorial Book.

D.MILOVIDOV The sister of the deceased Christina Kurbatova left.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Yes, Christina's sister left and had a baby boy, named Christian, yes, but there also was a tragedy, her husband


O.BARKOVSKAYA Her husband died.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV We lost Boris Lapin, our actor who was also with us. He was a fellow countryman and a fellow student at the Ufa College of the Arts. Fora year he had a headache like all hell, then it turned out that there was a tumor and he was gone, unfortunately we lost him.

K.LARINA That is, everything that had happened to him happened after Nord-Ost.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Yes, of course, because the gas is not excreted from the body. Backthere Mark was complaining, Iknow he's got this hellish headache all the time. Sameproblem for me, but I've been trying to fight it somehow. We’re all for healthy diets, no alcohol or smoking, to support our liver, but understand that the toxin is not excreted from the body. Onehas to live with it and somehow delay

K.LARINA Where did you find that? Didyou somehow check?

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Iread, Iasked many experts and looked on the Internet, and Dmitry has made many inquiries and pretty much knows a lot about the components of this gas. No, there wasn't, Ithink, an antidote to the gas and, you know, like even the fact that there is no description of how it acts on a person, because many countries are fighting terrorism, and Iknow that it's a big problem in the state of Israel with this as well, but when they had a hostage situation and there were not many one or two Ithink were held hostage. One, two or three, but no more. Andthey, the secret services of Israel, rejected this gas, it was rejected because they didn't know the effects, it could have been life or death but still they refused.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Well, Ican say that one of the hostages underwent tests in the American Hospital in Paris. It's a hospital operating there. So, only the best European doctors work there, and they just couldn't come up with a diagnosis, that is, they didn't understand what happened to him.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV The same thing with Konstantin Sirotkin, who was here 2years ago in this very same studio, with Eugenia Albats. Hewas in the hospital for six months, he had a temperature, which wouldn't go down and it damaged his liver. Hehad problems with his head and the doctors didn't know what was going on with him, couldn't make a diagnosis. Samestory.

K.LARINA Iremember when all this happened we all watched the events on television and, of course, we saw the panic among those who came to rescue you Imean the guys who the commandos sent in, and they carried unconscious people outside and stacked them near the entrance.

O.BARKOVSKAYA We shot that film. Wehad the only camera there. Weput a reporter there and he saw it all.

K.LARINA Did you see how they loaded these unfortunate people onto the buses, how their heads were lolling around because they were all obviously out of it, but most important, remember, back then one could say this, but now no one says it, the doctors in the hospitals were supposedly prepared to receive the hostages, but they couldn't imagine with what was going on. Theyexpected gunshot wounds, but here were choking victims and no one knew anything. Whatkind of antidotes fort it was not even mentioned. Idon't know. I'd like some clarification from Dmitry. Wasthere some sort of official medical report associated with this story? Orwas there nothing at all?

D.MILOVIDOV There were autopsies carried out.


D.MILOVIDOV All 125autopsies repeated the same diagnosis: people had been sitting awkwardly for a few days, didn't drink enough water, and got little food and sleep.

K.LARINA Well, that's what Putin said, as a matter of fact.

D.MILOVIDOV They all breathed the same stale air, but suddenly, in a day, they all forgot how to breathe.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Well, Yaroslav Fadeyev's death certificate is just blank.

K.LARINA A lot of them, Iknow about this, are blank.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Iwas told that the children that were there couldn’t cope, but next to me was a former officer, Lena Baranovskaya's husband. Thiswas a healthy man who made it through Afghanistan, and when the seizure of the theater occurred he said: well, look, Igot away from them during the whole war and now they got caught me here. Andsitting next him was his son, also a big guy and a student at Moscow University, very tall.

O.BARKOVSKAYA 'Little Andrei'.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Andrei, yes. Andhe stayed there too, you know? Ican't say that they were, well, in bad health. Andthey're not the kids, they're grown men.

K.LARINA No, well, if this were so, if we assume for a moment, that it really is so, it means that each individual by this time had been under these conditions for 3days, let us believe that, alright, but then could they really say that the gas was what it was, or not?

D.MILOVIDOV And how was it with the Special Forces? Ninecommandos were hospitalized. Itis known that the Alpha group went in with gas masks, but Vympel group somehow went in without any. Theythought that the gas wouldn’t reach the place where the unit would operate, but when they climbed the stairs they fell under the effect of the gas. Nineof them were hospitalized. Fortunately, they were hospitalized in a special poison control center, the 33rd Hospital. Whatwe can't understand is why only 5hostages were brought to this hospital. Whydid the Sklifosovsky learn that hostages were coming in only when the buses showed up out front? This is also not very clear. Letme remind you, they used a substance based on derivatives of fentanyl. Tobe clearer, these derivatives have well-known forensic names: crack, Chinese white, china-white, that's what was used. Thegas didn't have the desired effect of immobilizing the terrorists. The investigation established that they returned fire with 13assault rifles and 8pistols. Count how many of the 40terrorists were without weapons. Naturally, it turns out that all (who had weapons) opened fire. Theyweren't put to sleep, none of them were. Andthe situation was very scary, because to start using gas was a provocation. Thegas had color, and there was a smell. Manyof the hostages who were asleep in the usual, what we call biological sleep, woke up from the acrid odor. Whatis it? Aprovocation? Thisstill remains a question. Thegovernment is only now beginning to acknowledge it as a primary cause, the use of this composite narcotic drug as a cause of pathology. Butit took 8years for us to prove that we were right.

K.LARINA Dmitry, as far as your council, is it large? How many people are in your coordinating council?

D.MILOVIDOV We have a regional public organization. As a matter of fact, the former hostages left for 46different cities.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Around the world, why? Andthe British, Germans and in Holland

D.MILOVIDOV Over there some people, thank God, can get competent medical assistance, while, like in the tale about the left-handed man, we get taken to a hospital where we can die regardless of rank. Fairy tales are eternal for a reason. Wecan't open membership of our organization to people from other regions. Thisis because of our status. But, of course, we write them and keep in touch. Itis a sad cargo on that day 200were transported to 35cities. Well, how is it for someone who lives somewhere in Snezhinsk, in Lesosibirsk, have you ever even heard such place names? Where could he or she receive adequate medical care? Atthe same time, the then governor of Chelyabinsk had on hand 5families, some of whom lost loved ones, well, that is, some of them were held hostage, yet he bothered to appeal to President Putin proposing the adoption a law on the status of injured in a terrorist attack, a law that could legally assist them. Heonly had 5, and yet he did this. Luzhkov has several hundred. Putin has 20,000 officially recognized victims of terror attacks. Butnothing is done. Itshould also be said that, besides Roshal and Kobzon, the Order of Courage was awarded to four of the hostages three posthumously. Whyare these examples of civilian achievement not promoted by the government, and not reported? Because

K.LARINA Because of this topic doesn't even exist. Comeon, we already started with this. I'm for beginning the broadcast naturally. Iopened it in hopes of seeing something, a television program next week. Iunderstand it's now the 23rd, it's understandable, and today was the beginning.

O.BARKOVSKAYA There'll be Igor's movie, have you watched it? REN TV will show a film by Igor Prokopenko.

K.LARINA Tell me when it is. Onthe 26th?

O.BARKOVSKAYA Ijust can be wrong about the date, but on the 26th they will show a movie by Igor Prokopenko.

K.LARINA Is it new?

O.BARKOVSKAYA It's a new movie, yes.

K.LARINA Well, thank you. Again it’s only Prokopenko and Barkovskaya, because as far as the federal stations, of course they’re completely silent. Idon't know for sure if they'll report the memorial ceremony, they'll just mention it and that's all. ButI want to remind you

D.MILOVIDOV Without commentary?

K.LARINA Yes. After Nord-Ost there was Beslan, which

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Explosions in the subway

K.LARINA Explosions in the subway. Andyou can list a lot of tragedies at the beginning of the reign of Putin and then

D.MILOVIDOV 56attacks in 2004. Thenwe lost count because some of the attacks were relabeled acts of hooliganism.

K.LARINA Here, tell me, Dmitry, after all, maybe Idon't understand, Idon't understand why so our society is so passive, why no one, as in any other civilized country, requires answers to questions that accumulate more and more after each attack. Nobody gets any answers. Theyjust get rudeness, or worse, they are mocked. Here in this case Imean the Beslan Mothers. Ournational media have started to make a mockery of them, this story with Grobovoi and other things, right? Idon't understand what is happening here with our people. HereI remember

O.BARKOVSKAYA We’re all hostages of information terrorism.

K.LARINA Dmitry said that like the passive actors who don't have solidarity, a guild at least, who were at the play and very participate in the Memorial Book, why don't you bring your friends and colleagues to these events?

D.MILOVIDOV They come.


D.MILOVIDOV They stand, and stood with us.

K.LARINA We live in such a cynical country where if an event isn't on TV it didn't happen. After 8years, that's a long time, there are already people for whom it's ancient history, maybe it happened, but nobody understands the gravity and horror of what happened back then in the city (of Moscow).

M.ABDRAKHIMOV That's why Isay that after it happened to me, Iset myself the task of waking up, because we're basically bio-robots. Weendlessly watch what they're telling us on TV, you know? Somehow we sincerely believe it, though if you turn on your brain and give it little thought, then everything falls into place. Sowe have such a society. We’re ruminants, you know? And, here, don't wait for what happened to me. Wakeup and live a full life. Think about why you came into this world.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Well, clearly, that can't happen because everyone we’re still, of course, bio-robots, but not just bio-robots. Every person is going through his or her tragedy. Iknow people who were also hostages at Nord-Ost, Iknow them very well, they don't want to come, they don't want to talk, because, well, simply because.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Because it's the pain. Youhave to go through the pain; otherwise you won't be able to live. That's all.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Well, some can't, and to endure the pain en masse, well, they just don't want to.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Then they need a psychologist.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Sometimes there are situations where psychologists don't help. Youunderstand that perfectly.

K.LARINA And there were some who signed non-disclosure agreements. Generally, do the agencies communicate with you?

M.ABDRAKHIMOV They talked with me.

K.LARINA How did this happen?

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Just because Ididn't go to the hospital. The next day two men in grey civilian clothes came into office. Such amazing people, you look at them and you just can't remember their faces. Theylistened very attentively to everything that Isaid, everything was recorded on tape, and they disappeared. Butthey never told me not to divulge anything. No, nothing like that ever happened.

M.PODLESNY Imust say that the state regularly for example, Iregularly receive letters, well, as regularly as once every six months, or sometimes once a year. Ireceive letters about the investigation being discontinued.

D.MILOVIDOV Or reopened.

M.PODLESNY Because following is a letter that the investigation of the case was reopened. That's all. Andthat relates to what you, Oksana, you were told about some who didn’t want to talk, or that it's such a trauma that some simply ignore it, it's crammed somewhere in there, on the inside, but life goes on. Ican say that as far as for myself, I, for one, don't hush it up. Ifyou ask me I'll talk about it. After the attack Ihad to talk about it a lot and had a lot of interviews. Ifelt that Ijust needed to speak out. Butnow I'll tell you that Igo somewhere, like here, or even to my professional activities, for example, Iwalk into a theater or some other project, Ijust don’t bring it up well, the musical Nord-Ost is on my resume, but I'm average, recently Itry not to talk about it too much, because what I'm getting now, you know, there's this pseudo-sympathy, because people don't know, and what can Itell them? Theyweren't there, but Iwas. They're not to blame for the fact that they weren't there, right?

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Thank God for that

M.PODLESNY And thank God I'm that I'm talking about it, but at the same time there is the perception, yes, and that silence, people turn inside themselves and are pointedly very silent. There is the question of social rehabilitation, but the perception by society that people who

O.BARKOVSKAYA Yes, people look at hostages as if they were lepers, people from a different world.

M.PODLESNY But the people who lived through it, not just those who came out of that auditorium alive, but there are still huge numbers of people whose relatives were there, and who no longer talk about parents and relatives who died there. Ithink they suffered more than even Idid. Still, even among those who remained alive Forexample, for all three days that you were there, there she is sitting at home, she can't find time for a little child who is with her at that time, and afterwards he needs medical help, that is, it’s necessary to see a neurologist, it’s necessary to see a psychologist, because for that child you represent three days of his mother sitting at home and crying nonstop. Thatchild doesn't understand what goes on, right?

O.BARKOVSKAYA Speaking only about society, yes, society must somehow

M.PODLESNY Wake up, as Marat puts it.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Wake up, yes. Ifsociety doesn't wake up in the media it is clear that Nord-Ost, it is clear that Beslan will not include these stories in the latest books written on Russian history.

K.LARINA They may even be recorded as successful operations.

O.BARKOVSKAYA No, more likely they won’t even be recorded. Ithink that every parent is obliged to tell their child about how it was in our country that people died, that in rescuing 900they killed 130, it's awful, it's in the center of Moscow, because Moscow then in fact is similar

K.LARINA It's that all Muscovites were held hostage by this criminal act back then. Andbecause of this I'm afraid that people will speak about it less and less frequently, who knows what they'll write about our times, yes? But just imagine this situation anywhere in a European country or in America, it's a government crime that we are discussing today.

O.BARKOVSKAYA Well, in America, by the way, when there was September 11th, within two or three years there were the shows about how it was for each victim at that moment.

K.LARINA For every person.

M.ABDRAKHIMOV Oksana, wait a minute, your problem has sort of touched me, that there are still for some it gets worse and worse, whoever's listening to me, if it's really bad, if it’s really hard on you, then contact me, let's talk, let me use my example about how Iextricated myself from this situation, I’ll try to help you as Ibest Ican with what helped me, Ireally hope it’ll help you. Ifthis is really needed by someone, I'll be happy to help.

K.LARINA Yes, Dmitry, please.

D.MILOVIDOV Let's start with ourselves. Youmay try to rely on society, but let's talk about ourselves. Whoare we? Weare either a unit of society, or not. Backthen, according to opinion polls, the majority was for an assault, no matter what, whether the hostages were released or not. Westill have some of the Orient in our blood. Wewant to be sacrificed. Oncethe victim is handed over then you can continue to graze.

K.LARINA What kind of poll, and whose was it? There wasn't any survey taken.

D.MILOVIDOV The Levada Center mentions some polls.

K.LARINA When? Backthen?

D.MILOVIDOV It is related

K.LARINA No, that's nonsense. There were no polls, none, none.

D.MILOVIDOV Of course, well, the press shows some, then comes psychological pressure. After all even former hostages

K.LARINA What could these moments have been? Whatcould these polls have been? Such things can't be decided by a referendum.

D.MILOVIDOV Remember that great movie Kill the Dragon?


D.MILOVIDOV Well there, in the kitchen, we know who killed the dragon, but outside the kitchen we're talking about something else. It's the same with former hostages. Weremember that the terrorists allegedly offered to let the hostages call their loved ones in order to organize a rally, but in reality it wasn't like that. Awoman hostage in the audience stood up and said: why are we sitting here, let's do something. Barayev waved his hand: go ahead. But, here, under the influence of the press, former hostages in interviews said supposedly it was like that, but when they meet each other they say: how could it have been? Weall know how it happened. Theyall say that.

K.LARINA We should already wrap up today's difficult program. About Levada, of course, I'll say that now it just conducted a survey on the truth of the events at Nord-Ost, and, according to polls by the Levada Center, 74% don't believe the official version of the events at Dubrovka. Iwant to draw your attention to the fact that none of the state organizations conducted such a survey. It's only the Levada Center that could take such liberties. Andmy question is: where are the 74%? It's important to understand what was. Sothat it wouldn't ever happen, that's what Dmitry says. Ithappened, and for me it's important for today's program to remind you, dear friends, that it happened in your life just 8years ago. Allthose who remember this, anyone who wishes to remember this, and all who have questions about it for the authorities, please come on the 26th, on Tuesday to Dubrovka, at what time?


K.LARINA At 10am. There will be a memorial service for the victims of the Nord-Ost. Andthank you, good luck to you guys and enjoy many creative accomplishments, because you are all very talented and bright people. Thank you.



M.PODLESNY Thank you. Allthe best.

D.MILOVIDOV Thank you.

Copyright: Radio Echo of Moscow

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