MILOVIDOV: Good evening.

PRONKO: Thank you for coming. We're still waiting for Gennady Gudkov, deputy chairman of Russian State Duma Committee on Security. Gennady is delayed in traffic. I hope, but I hope he’ll still get here. To begin with I'd like to do something. Very often journalists are accused of cynicism, but life is even more cynical than journalists. I don't have anything against plays, musicals, operas and operettas and, in general, I like to go to the theater. But here's what I want to ask you: not too long ago in the cultural center, where eight years ago this terrible tragedy played out, they launched a new show. Let me stress again: I have no commercial interests whatsoever and nothing personal. Do you think it unethical to run a new show in the building where the tragedy happened? It's clear that it's commerce. It's clear that it's business. I understand everything. I'm not trying to pressure you. I'll accept all opinions. If you think that this is okay — 5533, text message with the letter «A». We're doing text message voting. Normally it should be okay, it's been eight years. As they say, so what? That they've launched a new musical and it's running, please — 5533, text message with the letter «A». If no, it's wrong and unethical to run such an event in the cultural center on Dubrovka — 5533, text message with the letter «B». I repeat: I'm not pressuring you. I want to understand your mood, your opinion. Once again: if it's okay — 5533, text the letter «A», if it's unacceptable — 5533, text the letter «B». Dmitry, what do you think?

MILOVIDOV: I would change the question. Is it ethical that there's still no monument to the victims of Dubrovka? There's a plaque hidden in the corner of the building. For a year we sought it and then in order to correct the letters on this plaque we had to make the rounds of officials who, you see, are now busy with fresh terror attacks. We're not talking about props, which allowed the creation of this, so to speak, monument. For some reason many journalists feel that these little birds and this stele, which stands on Dubrovka, is a monument to the dead. The death toll around this «monument» was there on the night that the president arrived at the crime scene. Television cameras were set up and a list of the dead was posted on a piece of cardboard.

PRONKO: This was still Putin?

MILOVIDOV: This was still Putin. In 2002. In the morning the list disappeared and it's still gone. An altar stands there, ready for future victims. The master of the city took care that those who died in the attacks in metro stations and on airplanes and other attacks had monuments built. So, is it unethical or not?

PRONKO: And what do the officials tell you? You say that you're haunting their thresholds, are you trying to hold some sort of a dialogue with them?

MILOVIDOV: We discussed it and wrote a letter. They responded with a very beautiful phrase, that this monument, designed by the sculptor Galanovski, isn't a place of burial, but rather a cultural-monumental construction. This is a term that spans the entire line. It was obviously a monumental phrase. Therefore it would be inappropriate to place a list of the dead on it.

PRONKO: That's simple. It's not appropriate, yes?

MILOVIDOV: It's not appropriate, and below, the kicker: «Please accept our condolences. Chairman of the Committee of Culture for the city of Moscow, signed».

PRONKO: Dmitry, please tell us, at what stage is the investigation of this case? The government officials, the men, the investigators, did they knock it all out?

MILOVIDOV: The investigation is currently suspended, but it's reopened periodically.

PRONKO: Next time would it be worth adding anything? This isn't the first time that it's been suspended, is it?

MILOVIDOV: The suspensions and resumptions occur regularly, depending on the European Court's inquiries into the Nord-Ost case. They are required to copy materials, assign an investigator, obtain the case files, and who knows where they are anymore? And copy them. This requires initiating an appellate procedural action and the resumption of the case. One month later it's suspended for an interesting reason, and every time it's the same: due to the inability of locating suspected accomplices. You can name them: Zakayev and Dudayev, not to be confused with those well known figures on television that were destroyed earlier.

The investigation team on the Nord-Ost case was disbanded in December of 2003. After this the case involved one investigator. As we learned, it turns out that all resolutions of the investigation had already been accepted. But it wasn't until 2004 that former secretary of the Ministry of the Interior, Mr. Vasilyev, deigned to inform us that the medical part of assault had been a failure, and only then did we find out that there were resolutions from the investigation, and then we started working through the courts in order to find these out.

PRONKO: Unfortunately Mr. Vasilyev, whom we invited on air to speak with you and with our listeners, is now in St. Petersburg, and due to his work he can't be here right now.

MILOVIDOV: It's a pity that there's no opponent.

PRONKO: If I understand correctly, your coordinating council found that those who lost loved ones and relatives are not happy with the investigation and the general attitude towards this case?

MILOVIDOV: There was no criminal investigation opened to look into the deaths whatsoever. The case was initiated due to an act of terrorism, the relevant article of the Criminal Code, and the hostage crisis. President Putin said: «We shall punish no one. After all, they can't be saved.» And thus they covered up all the deficiencies.

PRONKO: You know, in this phrase there's a general disregard for the citizens of his country. It's very hard for me to judge, because you, Dmitry, lost a daughter. I'll just explain to the listeners: Dmitry lost a daughter there, Nina. She was 14 years old at that time.

MILOVIDOV: Forever.

PRONKO: Forever, yes. I don't know how you can pronounce so coolly the words of the former president, you know, for me it's a shock. What do you mean, «we shall punish no one, because they can't be saved?» Once he said: «It sank» (ed. note: the submarine Kursk). This is also his phrase.

MILOVIDOV: «It sank», «The gas was harmless», and about Beslan: «I didn't know».

PRONKO: Do you pronounce it calmly, or have you already experienced it and can no longer respond any other way?

MILOVIDOV: «A truth that's told with bad intent beats all the lies you can invent» — William Blake. On the contrary, we've already mentioned Mr. Vasilyev. I am very uncomfortable quoting him, but he invented a handy phrase: «But the relatives of the hostages will not agree with this».

PRONKO: So, it's known in advance that you wouldn't agree.

MILOVIDOV: In advance the hole was already dug. Therefore we only work on the case files, just the facts, and no speculation.

PRONKO: But it's a hopeless situation…

MILOVIDOV: Not hopeless.

PRONKO: Not hopeless. And what gives you — I don't know if it's even possible in this situation — optimism?

MILOVIDOV: Optimism? All that has been achieved. We succeeded in doing our own investigation based on the criminal case. We learned the regulations. We have now convincingly shown what happened, and what didn't happen. The results are evident in those documents we received from the government, that were forwarded to the European Court of Human Rights. We can see that we were proven correct.

PRONKO: So, you had to go through the European Court to communicate with Russian authorities, is that how it worked?

MILOVIDOV: We, as ordinary citizens, we can't make the justice system work, but as citizens we must. We had no other choice. We went through all the steps of the Russian Themis (ed: Greek goddess of divine law and order), we tried to appeal the ruling, but we saw ourselves totally powerlessness and were forced to air our dirty laundry in that court.

PRONKO: And in the literal sense of the word. Dmitry Milovidov is here today on «Real Time» — he's a father who lost a daughter, a member of the coordinating council of the Nord-Ost social organization that promotes the protection of victims of terrorist acts. Dmitry can you tell our listeners, and we now have hundreds of thousands listening, what conclusions you've drawn? You say you've conducted your own independent investigation.

MILOVIDOV: As far as the conclusions we arrived at, we'll give the public the facts: Avdyukov, who retired from his post as prosecutor for the city of Moscow, promised that all resolutions from the investigation, all investigation materials, would be available to the public. But something very strange happened: a month after the tragedy it turned out that not a single one of the captured terrorists was in the hands of the investigation. Did they just disappear?

PRONKO: Not a single one?

MILOVIDOV: None. The public swallowed it quietly. Let's continue. The authorities gave each other medals. The Moscow city government handed out badges, reading 'participant in the special operation'. There were some decent people who abandoned this play-acting, but there were those who didn't. Hero medals were awarded, according to our information, by secret decree, to Patrushev, other headquarters staff, but only two of the heroes were from the Special Forces who carried out the military assignment to destroy the terrorists. Afterwards, in violation of orders, they returned to the auditorium and evacuated our families. Headquarters ordered them to leave the hostages alone after the fighting was over. They ended up getting poisoned. In the criminal case it was recorded that nine Special Forces soldiers were hospitalized with poisoning. Why did this happen? Fortunately for them, they were taken to the poison control center at City Hospital #33. It's a great mystery, as to why only five of the hostages were taken there out of several hundred.

PRONKO: No answer to this.

MILOVIDOV: No answer. The investigation states: «Well, it happened like that.» After all, there were precedents, such as the Peruvian crisis of 1997. At the Japanese embassy in Peru about 500 hostages were seized. Solving the crisis took more than a month. Demonstrating political will and composure, leadership, all the while conducting negotiations. They prepared a special operation while through all sorts of ways they got hostages out. And when only about 50 hostages were left on the premises, the Special Forces attacked. The result: one hostage died of a heart attack, two officers from the Special Forces killed. At the time the Peruvian security forces discussed with the U. S. Marine Corps the possibility of using non-lethal weapons, such as those that they used at Dubrovka, a fentanyl derivative. They replied: «Since you have 400 hostages, you should get about 1000 physicians, otherwise it's useless. Can you do this?»

PRONKO: Wait, 400 people captured. If you use this special compound…

MILOVIDOV: For resuscitation you must have at least twice as many.

PRONKO: That is, they must be on the spot or in the vicinity.

MILOVIDOV: Either the commandos must have paramedic skills, which our law enforcement agencies don't have, or medics literally need to run in right after the SWAT teams. One to perform artificial respiration while the other does heart massage. After all, there has been no antidote invented for these special compounds. The Government has only now acknowledged this. I can't cite the document sent to the European Court, but I can provide a brief excerpt, don’t misunderstand me.

PRONKO: But nevertheless, they acknowledged it?

MILOVIDOV: They acknowledged that it would be illegitimate to consider «Naloxone» to be an antidote. It's a respiratory analeptic, which sometimes is used to help drug addicts, and then only for short periods. If for more than 5 minutes — loss of breath, later there's cardiac arrest and after two minutes resuscitation is futile. This happened at Dubrovka.

PRONKO: So, I understand that by comparing different facts you have come to certain conclusions?

MILOVIDOV: The court should do findings. Under our constitution only a court can make a decision. We're only publishing materials from the investigation.

PRONKO: That is, the facts.

MILOVIDOV: The facts. But from these materials one can see it all in black and white. A very long time ago on one of the forums we got a message: there are some decent investigators working here, they left everything you could need, just go on in and check these boxes until you get acquainted with the case materials. We did this. Really, the investigative team had done a lot of work, but the fact remains that all this work was wasted. It wasn't used in preparing the resolutions. It's not the fault of the investigators. It's the fault of the state and our society.

PRONKO: But Dmitry, the state is specific officials, it's a concept personified.

MILOVIDOV: The state is also a particular society, which should require officials to perform… What do we ask for, anyway? The task of our organization is to finish the hostage rescue operation. After all, people who went through a gas attack now suffer from various illnesses. What should we tell a girl whose mother was in her fifth month of pregnancy and went through a gas attack? This girl as far as the investigation is concerned was not a victim. Her mother received a response to her application, to the effect that human life begins at birth, and since little Zlata was born after the attack, she was not injured. The girl is growing up, taking her first steps as such though much time has passed, and she can already think and so she asks: «Mommy, why can't I run around like the other kids?» I took her to Roshal. Roshal was made director of one of the famous centers. There they established a different diagnosis, not cerebral palsy, but toxic encephalopathy. The mother was asked if she wished to change the diagnosis. «And what will happen?» she asked. «You'll lose your pension,» they said, because we never had such a disease such as toxic encephalopathy until Dubrovka. But I could be wrong. And so her mother also has to care for her parents who were handicapped at Chernobyl. Does she need a truth such as this? She said: «No».

PRONKO: Look, I'm not even shocked. I don't know where to go with this program anymore, because I'm with you, Dmitry, I fully agree. It's not just about Putin, who was promised certain preferences by those who wrote all sorts of manifestos and conservatism. I now appeal to the audience. The example that Dmitry just gave, Zlata, was she the little girl?

MILOVIDOV: The girl is named Zlata.

PRONKO: It's not even cynicism, you know. I don't know what words to pick to describe what's happening in this country. Perhaps it isn't normal, it's a kind of surrealism that the mother is being blackmailed, it's blackmail actually: «Change the diagnosis means canceling the pension.» I can't understand this! Can even a single person in this country somehow explain what's going on? Presumptuous, arrogant power! Anything different — no way!

MILOVIDOV: You're repeating (cynic comedian) Zadornov's words that he said back then: «An embezzled government.» There were other words by (musician) Boris Grebenshchikov: «I didn't feel myself to be a citizen.» Therefore, many officials are trying to forget Nord-Ost. It never was. But there are decent people. Not very long ago one of the former hostages attended a concert at the Kremlin Palace of Congresses. A concert by Krutoy and Khvorostovsky. And suddenly, right after Virgil's great words about the futility of evil, on the screen there was a list of the hostages. She told me how she felt at the time. She didn't understand what it was, but when it came to her late husband's name, when it came to my daughter's name, just then she realized what it was. Later the concert was repeated on television. I was warned that it would be on at a certain time, but still I got goose bumps. I make a low bow to these two great people for performing their civic duty, to the memory (of the slain hostages).

PRONKO: Thank God that there are really people like that. But, Dmitry, do you believe that the state — the officials and the public — wants to strike Nord-Ost from its memory?

MILOVIDOV: Naturally. And at times they have purely material considerations.

PRONKO: Can you explain?

MILOVIDOV: It's unfortunately that Gennady Vladimirovich (Gudkov) isn't here. He received some interesting queries from the governments of various countries about what happened to funds that were transferred to assist victims of terrorist attacks, in particular at Beslan.

PRONKO: I beg your pardon. Ilya, let's see if we can get Gudkov on the phone. They just wrote that he's thoroughly stuck in traffic, so we'll talk with him by phone. Once again, it means that he sent requests for financial resources intended for victims.

MILOVIDOV: I don't know that he sent requests, but he got questions from the parliaments of Germany and Britain on where certain sums went. Moreover, as a member of the Security Commission he received information that the FSB in 2005 announced the confiscation of bank accounts of organizations that funded terrorists. And where are those funds? Once again they disappeared. They successfully sold the beautifully renovated theater for the ball-bearing plant (on Dubrovka), but that's another story. One interesting story remains with the gay club. Seating for fifteen hundred. Visitors included members of parliament. The investigation says that perhaps there was some compromising material, but the end result of that theme was not disclosed. This is my personal opinion. It hasn't been explained who the real owner was or what was going on there. The investigation states that everything was diversionary action after a short reconnaissance, that the terrorists supposedly weren't settled anywhere, they weren't based anywhere. But many terrorists had arrest records for passport violations. The archivists had four records. The terrorists 'roofed' certain points in Moscow, or more precisely they were covered, excuse the slang.

PRONKO: As such everyone understands it.

MILOVIDOV: Another story that hasn't been investigated to the finish is the Prima Bank, which had people working for it who seized Nord-Ost. What did this bank do? There are some documents that shed light on its connection. Once again I was stopped by secrecy concerning criminal case materials.

PRONKO: Come on, that's what we're doing now. They wrote me that Gennady is already on foot, that is, he abandoned his car. Well, these Moscow traffic jams, you can't walk and you can't drive, but I still hope that he'll reach us.

With me in the studio here at Finam FM is a member of the coordinating council of the Nord-Ost organization for promoting the protection of victims of terrorist acts, Dmitry Milovidov. Now we're going to communicate simultaneously with our audience on a multi-channel phone, the number is 65-10-99–6, and through our web site, its address is www.finam.fm. What Dmitry just said, to put it mildly, is shocking.

Igor writes: «Who is the guarantor of a citizen's safety in this country, in this city, on this street? What's the responsibility of the guarantor? Actually, there's none.»

Ilya writes: «It just so happens that on that night, from Friday to Saturday, I had to spend 22 hours with relatives of the hostages in the gym at the vocational school on Melnikov #2. My job was to give the microphone to the speaker. In addition to some informational notices from the headquarters, Matvienko came to speak. There was no chance of Putin showing up, though many would've liked to see him. At 6:40 am I heard two explosions.» This is how Ilya describes the situation. Dmitry, were you there?

MILOVIDOV: I was there and I heard the address by Matvienko, this Soviet official.

PRONKO: One must admit that she reached fairly good heights in the administration.

MILOVIDOV: Yes, she got a good position for her lie.

PRONKO: And what was her lie?

MILOVIDOV: That everything was done to save lives, while from the criminal case materials it was shown that hostage rescue was a secondary objective.

PRONKO: I have now come to a terrible conclusion — the current government covers for each other. They can't touch each other. Here they are, all their names: Matvienko, the governor of St. Petersburg, Shantsev, governor of the Nizhny Novgorod region who is once again a candidate for mayor of Moscow, and Prime Minister Putin. They'll never go against each other. They cover for each other. Mr. Milovidov is right when he says that they want to simply delete Nord-Ost, because for them it's like a cataract in their eye. A cataract that can't be removed.

MILOVIDOV: Just like Beslan.

PRONKO: Three weeks ago I traveled to Tskhinval and passed through Beslan. Vladikavkaz airport is located in Beslan. When you drive out of the airport, you can't miss the children's cemetery with the beautiful name: «City of Angels.» I stopped and got out. Honestly, I didn't go into the cemetery. I'm a rather strong man who has gone through a lot in life, but one can't remain calm there. I had a lump in my throat from the very first moment. People went farther, but I couldn't because the children's faces on the gravestones — it's a terrible sight for any father.

MILOVIDOV: When I was there in September of 2004, I just fell to my knees. At night they were working with backhoe diggers because they weren't able to dig such a quantity of dirt fast enough so that people could bury their loved ones in a timely manner. During the day they worked manually. The result was a huge cemetery.

PRONKO: Dmitry, I have reached two terrible conclusions. The first is that the authorities cover for each other. All are involved either directly or indirectly with Nord-Ost, and are in power in various positions.

MILOVIDOV: Why? Some resigned from their posts. For example, Health Minister Yuri Shevchenko, who left the worldly life for the priesthood, saying that he and senior staff knew about the use of lethal weapons. About a thousand doses of «antidote» were prepared, but what talk of antidotes can there be when there never was one even invented? I for one wonder: why did Shevchenko take responsibility for someone else's sin? Mr. Vasilyev also left office.

PRONKO: But he's now in the Duma, heading the parliamentary committee on security.

MILOVIDOV: I'm reminded of the Acoustic Commission in (Bulgakov's novel) «Master and Margarita,» but I'd like to be mistaken.

PRONKO: The second conclusion that I've reached is that none of us are safe. I'm not blowing the situation out of proportion. We live in a country and in a city where you, to put it mildly, can have anything happen to you.

MILOVIDOV: They still aren't writing about how can there be Nord-Ost when there are traffic jams whenever somewhere a government bureaucrat (and his police escort) drives past?

PRONKO: No. They write that Matvienko was, to put it mildly, unconvincing. Natalya writes: «Forgetting isn't easy and there's no assurance that this won't happen again. This is demonstrated by the recent bombings in the Moscow subway.» 65-10-99–6 and www.finam.fm are our means of communication. Please, your thoughts and reflections. Personally I've said everything I want to. From what Dmitry said I now have lodged in my memory the name of a girl. It turns out that Zlata is eight years old?

MILOVIDOV: Yes, she's already eight.

PRONKO: And she wondered why she couldn't run like other children? Well, this whole damn great big unified power is not worth one Zlata. Know in advance, all who would defend the bureaucrats responsible for the grief of this young girl and her mother, to all those inhuman monsters that will call and excuse these snakes, every time you do this you'll hear from me the name of this little girl, yes and your ears will be ringing. Before you call us, call yourself up first and find out if you're this type! Our means of communication: 65-10-99–6 and www.finam.fm. Your opinions, remarks and questions. Once again I remind you that my guest is Dmitry Milovidov, a member of the coordinating council for the Nord-Ost regional public organization to promote the protection of victims of terrorist acts.

MILOVIDOV: Unfortunately, our listeners are not on equal terms with us. I'm on topic, while they're busy with their daily problems. Everyone has work and everyone has a crisis.

PRONKO: Dmitry they're Muscovites. At the very beginning you said it wasn't just the state's fault, but also society's, which regularly swallows the obscene pieces that the authorities toss them. I appeal to the audience and want to know how long they're going to put up with this? How long will they swallow this? How long are we going to swallow the fact that in a country where there's a Zlata, Nikita Mikhalkov still writes nonsense about conservatism and so on? There's Mr. Gudkov, arriving in the nick of time. Sit down. Gennady Gudkov, deputy chairman of the Parliament Committee on Security.

GUDKOV: These traffic jams. I had to run here.

PRONKO: Mr. Gudkov, Dmitry said that the government, the officials and the public, want to delete Nord-Ost and Beslan from their consciousness. Do you agree?

GUDKOV: Partially, yes, because not everyone in power, not all the officials and not all the people want to delete it from their memory. It's not just me — there are plenty of people who would like to get answers to these two tragedies. Not for the sake of curiosity, but to learn a lesson and not repeat it in the future.

PRONKO: Why was a tragedy even possible? Why is it that the Nord-Ost organization to promote the protection of victims of terrorist acts has to talk with the Russian authorities through the European Court of Human Rights?

GUDKOV: This tragedy was made possible as a result of wide-ranging reasons, including the issue of terrorism and our policy of placing our interests anywhere and everywhere. Because of unsuccessful counter-terrorism actions, and so on. There are a lot of reasons, but as to what actually happened at Nord-Ost, we'll never fully know.

PRONKO: Why?

GUDKOV: I talked with officers from the Alpha Special Forces group, and I asked them: «Guys, you had 40 minutes, why didn't you take anyone alive?» We could've learned from the terrorists how it all happened. They said: «Gennady, you know, it wasn't about that, it was a fight, clusterf*** and all that.» I said: «What the heck kind of special forces group are you?» And they told me: «We have the command — no prisoners. Whatever happens, happens. Naturally, we looked after ourselves.» Like any man I can understand the officers who performed their task and performed it professionally and extremely well, they saved the hostages, but they ought to have at least dragged someone out so they could find out who prepared this operation, how did they get weapons there, who naturalized and registered all these people, how did they get there, how did they get explosives? Lots of interesting questions. Who's who and who gave the commands, why didn't the terrorists have a plan? It's obvious that they (the terrorists) didn't know what to do with everyone after the capture. They were all waiting for some command, and whether they got it or not, we don't know that either. We'll never find these answers, probably not ever, unless there's some miracle.

PRONKO: I see. Dmitry Milovidov, your turn.

MILOVIDOV: I mentioned that I have the advantage over the audience and I want to make it fair. On our site www.nord-ost.org there is our Memorial Book for the victims, and our report «Nord-Ost: Investigation Incomplete.» The investigation materials are all collected in a single book. There are many answers contained in the criminal case materials. In particular there is a query to the FSB with an investigative report that explosive devices were collected and moved to the Moscow, Kaluga and Bryansk regions. That is, into Central Russia. Here it isn't a question about some region in Chechnya or Rostov. You may wonder why the Nevsky Express was blown up and why the terror attacks continue. Before Beslan another 56 attacks occurred.

PRONKO: Mr. Gudkov, what is all this? Is it inefficiency on the part of the intelligence agencies?

GUDKOV: Unfortunately, these are systemic problems of our state, which are reflected in the work of the secret services and all our police forces, work that leaves much to be desired. It's reflected in the work of some of the mass media, of the courts, which often release offenders, the quality of criminal investigations, which often don't prove guilt, which is why the courts release offenders. One leads to the other. There's no clear answer as to why. It's completely obvious that there's a flawed system of management in our country.

PRONKO: But here's a question that should be given a straight answer. It's about a girl named Zlata, whose mother was taken hostage in her fifth month of pregnancy. The cynicism of Russian officials no longer shocks me. I'd just like to rip something off them. How can they blackmail this mother to change the diagnosis of her child and question her pension in the event the child doesn't have cerebral palsy, which was assumed in assigning her disability payments? What are they? So very insolent and f**ked up. Have they completely left the bounds of permissibility, decency and conscience? How can they blackmail a mother, who went through all of this in her fifth month of pregnancy, a mother whose daughter constantly asks why she can't run like the other kids?

GUDKOV: Unfortunately, our government has become totally separate from the people. They're accustomed to acting like cogs in a single mechanism. Give them the command to quiet down a situation and they'll fulfill it. Give the command to activate it and they will also satisfy that. They could care less how it is with someone. They only remember the people when they raise their drinks in the sauna, then afterwards they go out and s**t on the people from above. There are decent people in our system, but they must still line up in formation and do their work, execute commands that they're given regardless of whether they're moral or immoral, humane or inhumane. In their earthly life they can and will escape from responsibility, but what will they do when it's over and they have to answer for it? When the Lord asks: «Where was your conscience?» Even then they'll assemble their arrogance and reply: «We abolished it during the first reading of someone's decree. We aren't to blame, go ask those who gave the orders.» Our bureaucratic system is indifferent to the point of impossibility, and it successfully uses the fact that within every one of us there is a servant complex, a slave complex. And whenever anyone of us gets a drop of power he begins to look upon the others as slaves, plebeians, even though he was as a slave just five minutes ago. Of course, he immediately ceases to care about them or even listen to them.

MILOVIDOV: Here we still have some oriental roots, which force us to make sacrifices. For some reason they decided that an assault on Nord-Ost was mandatory. Supposedly there were organizations that conducted public polls, which supposedly established that an attack must happen regardless of whether terrorists released the hostages or not. We've got to show force, period. The resolution by the prosecutor's office states: «For the sake of Russia's prestige in the international arena.»

GUDKOV: I drove to Nord-Ost when it wasn't yet cordoned off and there weren't any Special Forces groups, but there were some managers from the Interior Ministry and Federal Security Service and they were discussing something. I brazenly wandered over and could hear part of the discussion. I didn't hear a word about an assault having to be made be at any price no matter what. The fact is that the terrorists themselves were illogical and chaotic. They gave hostages something to drink, then didn't give them anything, let someone in, and then stopped doing that, made contact, and then didn't feel like it. Moreover, they shot a girl, Olga Romanova, who acted heroically and wanted to rescue people. Therefore, in those circumstances where there weren't any clear demands, they hadn't set up a way to negotiate, people were inclined to think that an attack was evident since it seemed that no one would survive.

MILOVIDOV: But there was no authorized negotiator. There are these professionals in the FSB. I hope they didn't fire every last one.

GUDKOV: They didn't fire them. There's a group of negotiators. The only problem at the time was that we didn't have a commander and we were all waiting to find out whom they would appoint. Among the candidates were a lot of different people. There were members of the Duma and there were Federation Council members and various other bosses. By the way, Luzhkov spent a day and a night at the headquarters. When Pronichev was appointed director of the headquarters then action started to occur more systematically. Later there was a new edition of the law on combating terrorism, which took into account who from the very first second was responsible for negotiations and the outcome of the operation. This wasn't done after Nord-Ost, but after Beslan.

PRONKO: I still want to air Ilya's question. I want to hear the views of Muscovites, maybe some memories and thoughts. Let me remind you that today my guest is Dmitry Milovidov, a father who lost his daughter Nina during the events at Nord-Ost, he is a member of the coordinating council of the Nord-Ost organization for promoting the protection of victims of terrorist acts. And we have Gennady Gudkov, deputy chairman of the Duma Committee on Security. Mr. Gudkov, I'll personally address Ilya's letter. He writes: «I grew up and stopped believing in fairy tales. I don't believe in terrorists. Terrorists are like (computer) viruses that are needed so that they can make anti-virus programs and make big bucks. Terrorism is controlled by the intelligence agencies, and what happened is the direct fault of the security services. Why? It's obvious — to scare the people. People will be scared to p*** on the authorities in the outhouse (ed: a famous Putin aphorism). What's it mean? That the authorities are smart? The people are kind of satisfied?» I quoted this to you as it is. Your answer?

GUDKOV: If we examine international experience with terrorism, we see that the terrorist bombings in Spain led to the resignation of the Spanish government. They led to other serious consequences for the authorities. This indeed is the immense fault of the great powers that created the phenomenon of modern terrorism.

PRONKO: Today Bin Laden once again came out in support of terrorist acts in France, and so on.

GUDKOV: Secret services actually had a hand in the creation of the terrorist movement, which today grows with a vengeance. This is called «letting the genie out of the bottle.» Let's say that Father Gapon also created a secret movement, but it escaped from his control. The secret services were involved in creation of the first terrorist, insurgent gangs, which by means of terrorist attacks attained certain political objectives. Now terrorism has become the cruelest, most barbaric, most inhuman way of making money and gaining power. There are no other motives. There are pawns drugged by ideology that go and blow themselves up. There are those who benefit from this behind the scenes, whether it's in the form of bank notes or an attempt to seize power. Let's recall the national liberation movements in several African countries. They waged guerrilla, terrorist war, and through this they gained their objectives, even though they acted no better than our warriors, and innocent people were killed.

PRONKO: Ilya is right that this is a virus. A virus that can mutate.

GUDKOV: A virus that has escaped the control of the security services.

MILOVIDOV: The authorities tell us that what is to blame for international terrorism is the fact that millions go into equipping it. Consider the report on Nord-Ost. This attack was done for pennies. Maybe one of the terrorists got his mitts on millions. This is evident even in the slogans of terrorists — they weren't characteristic of the Chechen Diaspora. All those black scarves and inscriptions in Arabic. Previously there wasn't anything like this. This is clearly money laundering.

GUDKOV: Or done in order to give false leads to the investigation.

PRONKO: Dmitry, say what you mean by pennies.

MILOVIDOV: There is a memo from the leaders of the Prima Bank to a well-known brigadier general concerning the ongoing bankruptcy of the bank, and receipts for what and to whom money was paid. Some of the security guards at the Prima Bank turned out to be the terrorists that seized Nord-Ost, and they were paid certain sums. Explosives wander the country and weapons and all that can be gotten very, very cheap. The terrorists were in Moscow and for a long time they were under the surveillance by law enforcement. There were also reports of their detention, but they were always able to buy their way out.

GUDKOV: Yes, it's true. The international terrorist movement exists, but I never believed that it had no single center. I think that «our people», who are outside the country and engaged in all this, did it.

PRONKO: «Our people» — who are they?

GUDKOV: I have a theory that this was done by the former secretary of the Security Council's people, because his men prepared a series of terrorist attacks.

PRONKO: You're talking about Berezovsky?

GUDKOV: Yes. I 'm not saying that it was by him, but his people did it. I have little doubt about it. It's obvious that the origin and motivation of the attack was by «our people» too. The organization was ours, and the command on what to do — this too had to come from «our» center. I don't know if the command was ever given or not, but later what happened, happened.

PRONKO: One of the recent statements by the deputy prosecutor general of Russia was that weapons of all shapes and sizes have fallen into the hands of terrorists, weapons from military units of the Russian armed forces.

GUDKOV: Certainly military depots were looted.

PRONKO: And so it's an unsolvable problem?

GUDKOV: It wasn't solvable during an atmosphere of war in Chechnya. In the Caucasus there are a lot of depots that were ransacked. When our troops left, they left the weapons, which then fell into the hands of terrorists and separatists. During the 1990s there was a huge traffic in firearms in Russia. If you remember, there were even assassinations committed with disposable AKMs, which were simply thrown away. Then they started a program to bring order in this regard. I can't say that it's been successful, because the illegal trade still exists, but it's not like it was in the 1990's when the weapons were everywhere and in bulk.

PRONKO: I understand that the deputy prosecutor general spoke about the current situation, about how terrorists now obtain weapons from Russian military units.

GUDKOV: No, there isn't the same ease in acquiring weapons anymore. I myself performed an experiment. I decided to order two AKM assault rifles. They promised delivery and even took the money in advance, but they couldn't get them even after a year and a half.

MILOVIDOV: That's strange, because a weapon went missing at Nord-Ost. There was a weapon used by the terrorists, in 7.62 mm. They discovered and logged in the empty cartridge cases. But no weapon. Someone just took it and left. There was proof that the weapon was either issued to the Chechen tax authority, or to federal forces. It fell into the hands of terrorists.

GUDKOV: There are so many civilian weapons given out under fake licenses. I remember how I had a meeting at the department of public safety at the Interior Ministry, and they were just discussing this topic. There were criminal cases and people fired. They were also doing a lot of business there.

PRONKO: To my great regret, the time of our broadcast is coming to an end. Mr. Gudkov, I still don't agree with you. I think sooner or later we'll find out the truth about Nord-Ost. Dmitry, to you and all those people involved in these complex issues, I wish you courage and perseverance with all my heart. You're living proof that society is still something worth fighting for, though they also fight for their own safety, because what happened to the victims of Nord-Ost could happen to them and their loved ones tomorrow. This was a tough broadcast. Thanks to all who were with us today. I thank my guests, Dmitry Milovidov and Gennady Gudkov. This has been «Real Time» on Finam FM.